Macy’s has been in the news a lot this week, and many are worried about what the latest round of store closures mean for the long-running retailer, and the future of in-person shopping in general. But Macy’s resident XR guru Mohamed Rajani came by our podcast a little while back to suggest that the future of retail exists in the virtual world.

Alan: Welcome to the XR for Business Podcast with your host, Alan Smithson. Today’s guest is Mohamed Rajani, responsible for VR and AR initiatives at Macy’s. Mohamed is part of the new Business Development and Innovation team at Macy’s, and is responsible for driving change through the development of new retail concepts and partnerships amidst an evolving retail landscape. “Mo” also leads Macy’s immersive technology initiatives, including VR and AR in furniture, which is removing key friction points for the customer, enabling an AR view in-room capabilities on the Macy’s mobile app. To learn more about the work he’s doing, you can visit macys.com.

Mohamed, welcome to the show.

Mohamed: Thank you. Thanks for having me, Alan. Happy to be here.

Alan: We had the opportunity to to have a few calls prior to Augmented World Expo. We were on a panel together, and you were talking about the amazing work that you’re doing at Macy’s. So let’s start unpacking that. Mo, tell us about what you guys are doing at Macy’s.

Mohamed: So just a little bit of context that our team does. Our team’s about two and half years old. I’ve been with the company for over eight years, across a variety of different functions. But about two and a half years ago, as a company, we decided to establish a dedicated team that’s purely focused on what’s new, what’s next. That’s focused on the emerging consumer landscape, the emerging technology landscape, and making sure that the Macy’s brand continues to be relevant not only today, but 10, 20, 30 years from now. So as a team, we’re purely focused on looking at new business models, new concepts, emerging technologies, but then really tying those to our strategic businesses. We want to make sure that any new innovation that we bring into the organization has a lasting impact. But more importantly, a meaningful impact that is actually moving the needle.

So if we think about from that context of how we ended up playing in virtual reality and augmented reality, in our business we have a strategic business fillers, and furniture is one of them. It is a business that is high touch, a high margin business, so it’s margin accretive, more profitable to the company, and it’s destination business for us. We’re top of mind for the customer when they’re thinking about furniture. And if you’ve had any experience in buying furniture, it is not a very easy process. It’s one of the few businesses that’s still overwhelmingly physical purchases. More business happens in-store than online, and by a higher margin. And part of it is just the friction involved in it. You don’t know how it’s going to look, how it’s going to fit. And it’s a business that we, as a company, need to fortify. It’s a business that if we want to remain relevant for the next five, 20 years, we want to make sure that we’re not only fortifying the business, but growing and capturing market share. So is that context, whereas we came across emerging technologies as part of our job, we were navigating the landscape and looking at what’s coming out.

This was 2016, into 2017. We started seeing virtual reality technologies, especially in the furniture space, and we started exploring and we wanted to make sure that there was a practical application to a business there. A couple of things that align. One was here is a technology that had a practical application and here is a business that was a strategic priority for the company. So our job was then to go out and figure out how to integrate the two. And so we did that first by launching a pilot in two stores in August of 2017 with a company called Marxent. And really the goal was to understand how this technology can apply to our business, but with two ultimate objectives. One was to drive employee adoption so our Macy’s colleagues and making sure they’re adopting the technology, and two is consumer adoption on the other end of it, making sure that our consumers are adopting an innovative but emerging technology. And we felt if we tackle these two goals, everything else will come together.

Alan: You’re talking about employee engagement or adoption. That is one of the most important things when you bring a new technology into a company. If people don’t use it, then it’s kind of useless. And I’ve heard some stories where a company will buy VR headsets and they just sit on the shelf. So how did you get your employees to use this? What were some of the techniques that you did, and what is the adoption rate now?

Mohamed: The ultimate goal– you’re right. In the past, we may have been guilty — just like a lot of other retailers — in bringing the technology either without a clear practical application or the execution is lacking for some of these basic parameters. So for us, it was critical that we had a comprehensive training program. We worked with our Marxent partners to really build a robust end-to-end training program that clearly outlined and communicated the benefits of the technology, the practical application of it, and what it means for our colleagues. If you’re in the furniture business, your ultimate goal is to drive sales. That’s how you’re evaluated. That’s how you’re commissioned. So it’s really to drive sales. And the idea for us was that if we were able to jump the hurdle and get our colleagues to adapt to this new technology, we knew that the upside was higher basket sizes and lower returns.

So the ultimate goal for us is to communicate with the colleagues, to say “Here is a technology that can not only help you drive higher meaningful paychecks or higher meaningful basket sizes, but also reduce returns,” which if you’re in the furniture business, you know the percentage of returns is not very high, but the cost of maintaining and managing those returns are as significant, as very burdensome as well. It was clearly outlining the benefits of the technology and the fact that we piloted in two stores and saw the results for ourselves. That allowed us to then take it to the balance of the organization and tell them, “Here are the benefits. We’ve done this before. This is what it looked like.” And that allowed us to drive really employee adoption. And that’s critical, because the consumer adoption cannot come if our colleagues don’t adopt the technology. So if we’re able to cross one hurdle, the other one becomes a lot easier, too.

Alan: Let’s talk numbers. You’ve seen some incredible uptake with this technology. You started with two stores. Talk to us about what you saw or what your original findings were in those two stores, because they’re almost unbelievable.

Mohamed: The first two stores eventually allowed us to make a decision that typically retailers of our size did not make: to scale something very, very quickly. So in the first two stores we launched in August of 2017 in Paramus, New Jersey, and in Miami, Dadeland. And we added our third location — our flagship location — Herald Square, a few months after that. But what we saw was staggering: in the initial pilot we saw our basket sizes increase by 60 percent. That’s 60.

Alan: Hold on. What?

Mohamed: Yeah.

Alan: Sorry. The basket size. Now, what does basket size mean?

Mohamed: The dollars for a transaction. So that includes number of items in the basket, and the average unit retail of each product. So the combination of that obviously is the basket size. And we saw the average dollar per transaction increased 60 percent for every sale that went through VR. Now, because–.

Alan: I don’t believe you.

Mohamed: [chuckles] Well, that’s exactly what everyone else said, but they had to see it for themselves. And when you go through the experience, you realize it is not anecdotal information. When you go through the experience, you realize that, yes, I can see how this would increase basket size, because I’m more confident in my purchase, so I’m less likely to return. But more importantly, I have now more confidence in how this is going to look. So you’re seeing more expensive items being purchased, because you’re more confident in your purchase.

Alan: Can you walk us through the experience?

Mohamed: Well, the experience starts way before you put on the headset. You walk into a furniture gallery, you’re met by our colleagues, our season trained colleagues who know the furniture business in and out. They’re probably one of the best in the industry. And when you walk into the stores, you’ll typically engage with a Macy’s colleague, who’ll walk you through our assortment, will tell you how it’s merchandised, and really ask questions around what you’re looking for. And typically, as someone who’s coming in to browse or exploring furniture, you have a sense of idea of what you’re looking for, and you’re tying that to now with either you’re trying to add extra pieces to your living space or you’re totally furnishing a new space. You have a sense of what you’re looking for, but you really need someone to guide you through what the best options are. Around that same process, and they’re typically used to identifying that hesitation around fit, “I’m not sure how this is going to look in my space. I don’t know exactly how big my living space is, or what the relation to the furniture space is.” And that’s where the colleagues now try to solve that problem for our customers. And they’ll bring them to our VR design experience in the store, and through a 3D design application on an iPad, they’ll be able to design. You will provide your general dimensions of your living space. They’ll put input it into the iPad application, and design it with Macy’s 3D content. So we’ve rendered– when we started, we had rendered about a small section of our furniture assortment in 3D. Our library now is ten times bigger than what it was when we first started two years ago. You’re able to design in the 3D application, and then you put on the headset and that’s where the magic happens. With the right dimensions, the exact sizing, you’re able to move things around, you’re able to add new things, edit things if they don’t look right. You’re able to move in closer, look at the texture of the furniture, and really brings the experience to life.

Alan: Can you add windows when you’re designing?

Mohamed: You can at windows, telephones, fireplaces. You can add plants to the experience. You can really mimic your living space.

Alan: Can you change the wall colors and stuff?

Mohamed: You can change the wall colors, floors. You can add wooden floors. You can change different kinds of colors. Everything they can imagine in a design application, you can do it here. And the best part is you can visualize it and do it on the fly. And really, when you go through the experience, that’s when you can really start understanding the numbers and saying, “Okay, these numbers are real, because this experience is so much better. And I have a much better idea of how this is going to look, how this is going to fit. So I’m more confident in my purchases.”

Alan: One of the metrics that I found almost more impressive than your basket size increase of 60 percent was the return rates. What is a typical return rate before VR?

Mohamed: So typically furniture is in a mid-single digit returns. Anywhere between 5 to 10 percent in returns. Just generally in the industry average. And what we were seeing through the pilot — and that’s held through as we scaled, as well — is about a 25 percent reduction in returns. When you take that number and put it at the scale that we have, that’s a monumental impact on the returns line for the company and eventually to the bottom line.

Alan: So 60 percent increase in sales and 25 percent reduction in returns. These are not immaterial.

Mohamed: They’re not. They’re three stores, but not immaterial.

Alan: Yeah, and that’s what I was going to say, is OK, so now you’ve presented this in two stores. You got some data. You go to your executives and say, “Hey, guys, we have something here.” What was the response met like, and how did it go from two stores to 100 stores? Was this like a long term rollout? How did this work?

Mohamed: If you asked me this maybe three years ago, maybe that would be the trajectory. We would do it in three stores and say “This works, let’s take it to five stores. Let’s take it to 10 more stores.” What we met with the reaction from our executives– and they’d seen this, so our CEO was on the ground in stores. Our leadership had been in stores, and they’d seen this in real time and seen how it was working. They’d seen the feedback — from our colleagues in-store, from the leadership in-store — that this was a game changer. It was a differentiator against our competitors. We were the only retailer that had this in VR form inside our stores. And it could be a differentiating factor for us and a competitive advantage in the business. So the feedback from the leadership was “How can we go faster, and how can we go bigger?”

And then it was up to my team to start building the plan to roll out. And we went back a week or two later with our plan to roll it out to 50 stores initially, actually. And that was tying to our strategic priority at the time of our Growth 50 initiative, which was fortifying our 50 top stores across the country with new investments. So we went with the plan to take 50 more stores and add VR to it. The response we got was “No, we meant bigger. How do we go bigger?” And that was 100 stores, which at the time was 100 that ended up being 110 stores. So within a space of actually six months, we added 100 new stores, so by the end of January of 2019 we were in one 110 stores.

Alan: Wow. OK. So there’s one other thing that I think– it would be an incredible addition to any retail location to get an increase of 60 percent and a decrease of 25 percent returns. But let’s talk about the cost that Macy’s spends to bring a furniture store into a typical Macy’s. The cost savings alone of bringing this in versus a traditional furniture store.

Mohamed: That’s the beauty of the technology, right? There’s multiple formats, models that we can really try out. And so the format that we’ve gone with today is to augment the furniture buying experience in our furniture galleries, in our furniture stores. And we’ve got about 250+ of those stores and we’re in about half of them. And the hope is to expand that to all of them. But what the technology now allows us to figure out is there are markets where there is demand for furniture. There is demand for Macy’s to play in. But it’s cost-prohibitive. The ROI is in there, in context of what it cost to build a furniture store there. And that’s where we think this technology could play a critical role in us taking furniture across the nation. We’re in markets where we can not justify a fully fledged investment in building a furniture gallery. Can VR play that virtual furniture gallery with an endless island?

The key there is that if we can expand our 3D content — and we’re on the path to doing that — it’s still a cost-prohibitive process in driving 3D content. But we’ve come a long way to where we were two and half years ago, where the cost continues to go downward. But the idea is that if we’ve been able to build a 3D library that allows us to now take furniture to stores where we don’t have to invest in the inventory in that space, we don’t have to make a 50,000 square foot or even a 10,000 square foot furniture store.

Alan: What is the footprint of the VR area?

Mohamed: The VR space today is– the largest we have is about 500 square feet, but that’s in our flagship stores. You can do it in up to 100, 150 square feet. So that’s– a typical furniture gallery for us is 50,000 square feet, a furniture store inside of Macy’s is about 10 to 20 thousand square feet.

Alan: So 60 percent increase in sales. 25 percent reduction in returns. And a hundred times decrease in the space required, which in retail is dollars.

Mohamed: Exactly right. And so the goal becomes, remember, the 60 percent increase is on any transactions that’s going through VR. Some of that is a function, a result of how much your 3D content library is, or how big your library is. Today that’s a small percentage of our library. But the goal is to continue to expand that. And as I said, we’re increasing in multiples. We’re about 10x where we were two years ago. And the idea is to continue to expand that library, because we know the upside is higher basket sizes, lower returns, and smaller footprints.

Alan: Let me ask you a personal question. If you were any other company in the world, why are you not doing this?

Mohamed: That’s a good question. And if I wasn’t in the role that I am, I probably wouldn’t know that either. I think at the heart of it is, you need a champion, you need an internal champion. You need someone who is– one exposed to the technology. But you also need someone at the leadership level to say, “OK, I’ve seen enough in this. This is big. This is a differentiating factor.” And the companies that get it, by the way, are doing this. The beauty about the Macy’s business is that we have– we’re not a pure play retailer. We’ve got a massive store footprint, and we’ve got some of the best real estate across the country. And then you’ve got a massive digital footprint. So we’re able to leverage this technology across both channels, online and in-store. I think when you talk about investments and when you talk about ROI, sometimes that’s where the hurdle becomes, where you don’t have enough use cases to leverage the technology.

Where the beauty for us is, our singular investment in 3D content goes across our mobile app, goes to our digital properties, goes to our store. So we’re able to spread the investment as well and move faster. I think if businesses really hunkered down and looked at the practical application of this technology, it’s not right for everyone. It’s not even for us. Not all categories have the same practical application. So we’re still thinking about today, how do we take this technology and where else can we use it? Furniture is an important part of a business, our business, but it’s a smaller part of our business.

Alan: Clothing, for example, it would be great to see your own avatar with clothing on, but the technology just isn’t really there yet.

Mohamed: It’s not there yet. Exactly. And that would be the holy grail for us, right? That’s the bread and butter of our business. Apparel.

Alan: If we figure this out, will you sign a contract with us? No, I’m kidding.

Mohamed: I mean, you’ve piqued my interest. Trust me, I spent a lot of time looking at what other technology companies are doing in the non-furniture categories. In fact, we’ve made some investments this year in starting to build our 3D content library in non-furniture, as well. So we’re doing it across apparel, across accessories, footwear. In a small scale, but really trying to understand where also can we leverage this technology? Having spent the last two and half, three years in this space, I truly believe the consumer of the future is going to interact in 3D. We’re one of the earlier movers, and we’re trying to set the foundation. But if businesses are not making those investments today, they’re going to be left behind five years from now.

Alan: Yeah, absolutely.

Mohamed: Macy’s as a brand as you, in spite of everything that you hear from the reporting in the media that department stores are dead, the reality is that Macy’s has always been one of the pioneers. We launched our e-commerce business in 1998, way before any of the other retailers had even started. And that’s a core reason why today we’re one of the largest Internet retailers in the country. And so it’s always been a leadership that has been excited about change, and been investing in it, and having the courage to invest in change. And that’s what we’re seeing here as well. By leadership that we’ve got, their support to really explore how do we evolve our e-commerce business, evolve our stores business, and invest in emerging technologies that really have a practical application to our strategic priorities.

Alan: It’s true. And being able to take the knowledge and experience that you guys have gained. And then thank you, first of all, thank you for joining this conversation, because I think people listening, especially those of you listening in retail, this punctuates the value that virtual and augmented reality brings. Talk about your AR component, because I know you’ve built these furniture visualizers in VR, so you can go into a store. But I think equally as important is something like what you guys are doing in AR, being able to see these same 3D models, you don’t have to create anything new, just the same 3D model. Maybe you decimated a bit or make it smaller for the AR to use on a mobile phone, but you can now see that couch, or that hutch, or whatever in your own house.

Mohamed: Absolutely. And that’s the beauty of this. I was talking about diversifying the ROI. And that’s where an investment in 3D content allows you multiple use cases. Today we’re absolutely scaled in VR in-store. But since last year, we initially started as a test in piloting the augmented reality component in our furniture business on our mobile app. Now mobile is a core part of our strategic priority. It’s our flagship location. Our best customers are omni-channel customers. They shop on our mobile app. They shop on our mobile properties. They shop on our website. They shop in our stores. And really, the goal for us is to continue to drive the mobile app experience.

We’ve got one of the highest-rated retail apps in the app store. Last year, we grew our mobile business by about 50 percent. We did nearly a billion dollars through our mobile app last year across Macy’s and Bloomingdale’s. So you can see it’s a top priority for the company. And the goal is to continue growing that. The way to grow that is when you pack value inside the mobile application, you drive different experiences. And that’s where we’ve made sure that we’re able to extend the AR experience into mobile apps. So we tested it last year. We launched it this year across Android and iOS. So all our app users are able to do that. And really the experience is if you’re on the furniture product page, you’re able to click a button that says “View in my room” and you’re able to– it will use your camera to superimpose the 3D content in your actual living space. And the beauty is you’re able to change colors and try different things. What I’m excited about is with where that technology heads today, so single scene experience. You can put one product and view that in your room. We’re not far away from doing a multi-scene environ where you’ll be able to bring in multiple products and look at how that. And I think that’s going to change.

I think if you think about the beauty of VR, where I like it is, it’s a location-based experience. I have 600 locations across the country in about 250 to 300 furniture locations. So I’m able to drive consumers to our store through VR. Really, the scale is in AR when the consumer through their smartphones will be able to interact with the technology. So that gets us excited. We’re seeing some really good early results, that I’m not able to share yet, we haven’t made them public yet. But they’re really meaningful results in terms of driving conversion, when a consumer interacts with AR in our furniture business. I’m excited about where that’s going to go.

Alan: There’s so many opportunities. Now, something that comes up on almost every one of these podcasts is training. Are you guys using this technology in that capacity, as well?

Mohamed: So– we’re not. Not yet, I would say. I think it’s one of the core opportunities for us, especially as a retailer with a lot of stores and a lot of retail. We’re 130,000 strong organizations, so clearly there’s a lot of requirements for training. And it’s something that we’ve started exploring. We’ve had some conversations, and it’s something that we’re deeply looking into. I think there’s– if I look at that three core uses for immersive technology in general, clearly the need for practical application to specific business is one of them. Training is the second one, where I really think it can add value and meaningfully drive costs, but also increase engagement, and as a result, retention of the training material. And then the third piece is obviously as a branding and entertainment avenue. And as you know, Macy’s is a powerhouse in that sense. We run some of the most sought after events, from the July 4th fireworks, to the big annual Thanksgiving Day parade, to the flower show. So there’s a lot of opportunity for us to leverage immersive technology in these three streams.

Alan: I have one for you. So on the Fourth of July, I posted a couple of AR apps that you could do AR fireworks, and all of them were meh. So let’s make the Macy’s Fourth of July fireworks AR app.

Mohamed: I mean, all year. I think the idea is you want to make sure the experience is authentic. You want to make sure that one, the experience is authentic and you really get immersed into it. So I’m not sure if the fireworks in AR is the right– it’s something that we want to explore. We want to look into it. But we want to make sure that the experience that someone who’s live in that space is experiencing, you’re able to replicate that in an immersive technology setting. So we’re going to look at that space closely. We’ve spent some time with our leadership in that space to talk about it. And I’m excited about what could come down the line.

Alan: There’s so many great things that you guys are doing. And I think one thing that’s really interesting about the work that you’re doing at Macy’s in general, is that you got bit by the VR bug. You found an early use case that showed real ROI. And now you realize, “Wow, if it shows this kind of ROI in one section of our company, what else can it do?”

Mohamed: And that’s the key, finding a practical application. Because that’s the catalyst. If you’re able to find a practical application — when I mentioned earlier about core goals are on driving employee and consumer adoption — because there is a practical application, our job got a little bit easier in driving the employee adoption and the consumer adoption. But then — as you just alluded to — it’s exactly that. Like as soon as– if it worked here, where else can it work? Where else can I take it? And that’s been the mentality on our team. That’s been the mentality with our leadership to say, “OK, this was great. Now figure out how do we spread it to other parts of the company.”

Alan: Absolutely. What advice would you give a new company that’s new into VR? What would the first steps be for somebody that is looking to invest in this technology?

Mohamed: Technology for technology’s sake is not going to work. So there is always that shiny object that’s out there. But I think really focus on what you were trying to solve. Identify a problem that you’re trying to solve, and figure out a practical application. That’s exactly the approach that we’ve used. We had a business that was a strategically important business to us. It was full of friction in the consumer buying process. And here was a technology that could alleviate that problem. If you’re in that situation, then constantly focus on the end user experience — whether that’s the employee who’s going to use that technology or drive the adoption of the technology, or the customer — make sure the end-to-end process is fully embedded out and fully thought through. From training to execution, all of those need to be really focused on how the end user is going to use the technology. And if you’re able to do that– and not all of those, even if you follow that to the tee, things may not work out, but you will learn a whole lot about what are the aspects that worked and what didn’t, and that allows you to pivot elsewhere. But really, the core is to find a problem you’re trying to solve, versus something that’s good to have. So get the basics right, then try to identify real problems that either your employees are having or your customers are experiencing, and then go about finding a technology that’s truly solving that problem.

Alan: Mo, this has been really, really intriguing, and I think it’s really amazing that you’re sharing this information. And I think I want to applaud you and the Macy’s executive team for sharing this, because without these early case studies and these early wins, this technology doesn’t go anywhere. If you guys had just said, “Yeah, we’re seeing these great results, don’t tell anybody,” there would be no reason for other companies to invest in it. And I think what we’re going to see is a much, much larger pie be created from all of this, rather than the scarcity mindset. So thank you for being one of those people that champions this technology.

Mohamed: No, I’m happy to. And I think there is a benefit for us in ensuring that. One, obviously, it highlights some of the great work our teams are doing. Obviously I’m the face of it, but it’s a massive team behind me that’s actually executing this on the ground every day. But more importantly, even our investments today are early investments. So we’re typically– because the market’s not– it’s still not mainstream yet. Our investments are a lot higher than what it would usually be. So the hope in return is that as we evangelize the technology and continue to share, and more players enter the fray as that demand increases, we’ll be able to see some of the costs come down as well, and as a result improved ROI for later players as well. But more importantly, some of our– some of the early movers, such as us. So I’m excited to share. It’s something that I’m deeply passionate about. I think there’s a lot of opportunity in this technology and a lot of retailers — the ones that are truly serious in this space — are actually making meaningful investments alongside us. And the hope is that more retailers come on. I think it’ll be good for the industry in general if more players join the fray.

Alan: It only serves to decrease the costs for everyone because, for example, three years ago, VR developer wasn’t really a thing. You know, you had to kind of go hunting for people that were making video games, and bring them over to the dark side of enterprise. But as more and more people start to see this technology as it expands, I think we’re gonna see what we’ve already seen, a dramatic decrease in the cost to produce this type of content. 3D objects or 3D assets for retail. Three years ago, building a shoe in 3D would be a 1,000 bucks to build one shoe. And now there’s lots of people that will do it around the world. And then there’s photogrammetry techniques, there’s different ways of doing it.

Mohamed: If you think about it, just on our mobile channels we’ve got over a million and half units or products. So if you think about it, the scale that we require, the content price to be able to scale 3D content is monumental. And so we’re seeing it move in the right direction. Our costs are significantly lower than where we were two years ago, but we’re still not at the rate where we need to be to scale. But the hope is that as more players come in, and to your point is there is higher demand for designers, and we’ll be able to continue to see that moving in the right direction. I’m excited about where it’s going, but there’s a lot of work to be done to get to scale.

Alan: Well, it sounds like you and your team are leading the way, so thank you again. I can ask you one last question. Mo, what problem in the world would you like to see solved using XR technologies?

Mohamed: So I will be biased, because I am still– I’m a retailer at heart. So it’s the consumer experience. If we think about where the consumer five years from now is going to engage with retailers, I think XR is the space where that can bring that experience closer to life. If you see today why physical retail continues to be strong, you hear about store closures everywhere, but you’re also hearing about a lot of new store openings. And part of it is because the physical experience going to a store, the online experience can’t replicate that. And if you think about it five, 10, 20 years from now, and if you want the online business to continue to grow and become an equal share of global commerce revenue, XR is, I think, an avenue to help solve that problem, to create a digital experience that mimics as closely to a physical experience. And until we get there, you’ll continue to see physical retail thrive. So that’s one I’m really curious. I mean, obviously I’m at the center of it for some parts of it, but I’m really, really interested in seeing how that comes to life and how– not only does it solve consumer pain points, but also enhances and augments that experience.

Alan: Thank you again for taking the time to join us on this podcast. And I think on behalf of everybody listening, this has been a fantastic opportunity to learn about Macy’s and the technological advancements of a 100 year old retailer remaining relevant in 2019 and beyond. So thank you.

Mohamed: My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Looking for more insights on XR and the future of business? Subscribe to our podcast on iTunes, Google Play, or Spotify. You can also follow us on Twitter @XRforBusiness and connect with Alan on LinkedIn.

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